not in Primary anymore

confronting the naked facts of male immodesty, one kneecap at a time

Tinesha and Hannah present this investigative report to shed some light on this dark, dark situation. 

Recently, a male BYU-Idaho student uploaded the following image to the internet:

original image

He is so right to point out that dark, erogenous groove. In fact, Tinesha and I are about to prove that this rampant immodesty problem is possibly even more devastating among the male population.

See Exhibit A: Location- BYU, Provo Utah, beside the Harold B. Lee Library building. (Isn’t this against the Honor Code??)

three guys

Tinesha explains: “By dressing this way, he obviously doesn’t realize that his body is temple. His body is more precious than the most exquisite temple on earth. Imagine a beautiful temple. It is pure and gleaming and white. Now, imagine there is paint smeared all over that temple. The beauty of the temple is lost. Dress represents what’s important to us, and this young man is an example of someone who doesn’t care what’s really important — his gleaming temple. He has chosen to smear his body with graffiti by wearing that outfit. “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God”?!?!?”

Church leaders have attempted many times before to stress to us the extreme importance of modesty:

Don't quote me on this, but I"m pretty sure it was a recent general authority who said that your IQ goes down an average of 20 points for every immodest outfit you wear.

People who dress immodestly are stupid, end of story.

Exhibit B: Location- BYU, Provo Utah, outside the Ernest L. Wilkinson Student Center.


Tinesha reports: “After viewing this set of knees, I felt my virtue slipping away. My parents had always told me to “beware of the dark erotic groove on legs,” but how could I when these young men are willingly taking my virtue away? How can I keep my thoughts clean when they dress this way? It makes it really hard to be able to talk and have a conversation with a young man when they are dressed so immodestly because I am distracted by their immodesty (do you see the knees hanging out??)
This guy obviously does not understand what it means to be modest. He just got dressed that morning and didn’t even bother thinking that by dressing this way, he was making me — a virtuous young women who cannot control my thoughts or actions — feel uncomfortable.”

Let’s hear from a reader of the New Era:

An event some years ago changed my attitude toward modesty. As I got ready to go to a Mutual activity, I put on some short shorts; it never occurred to me that they were inappropriate. The activities planned for that Tuesday included having the missionaries give us some practical advice about missionary work. One of the last empty seats was next to me. For a brief moment the sister missionaries began to argue, as discreetly as they could, over who had to sit next to me. Though they never said so specifically, I understood they were uneasy because of the way I was dressed.

At that moment, notwithstanding my embarrassment, I began to understand what it meant to be modest. I realized that I was making virtuous young women feel uncomfortable—and that I could also be making unvirtuous women feel too comfortable (if you catch my drift). I began to better understand what type of person I wanted to be with and, more important, what type of person I wanted to be. From that moment on, I was not only prepared for the changes I was about to make, but I looked forward to making them.

-Edward R. Douche, Virgin Utah

Exhibit C: Location- BYU, Provo Utah, outside the Harris Fine Arts Center


Hannah: “The second I saw this boy’s legs, I felt an absence of the Spirit. I was confused, but then I realized it’s because he clearly does not understand that his body is a temple. Why else would he show such blatant disrespect for it by wearing provocative clothing?? I want to marry a man who is modest ‘at all times, in all things, and in all places’- NOT just when it’s convenient for him. This boy is saying ‘I want to call attention to myself and show off my curvy kneecaps.’ His shorts are so immodest that he is essentially walking pornography in this photo.”

Another New Era reader had this to say:

One possibility for promoting modesty among young men is a panel discussion with the young women. This approach drew together the young people of our ward in serious consideration of this gospel principle.
Some of the laurels we invited to participate were less than enthusiastic at first because they did not want to offend the young men who would be their audience. To help set the young women at ease, we met beforehand to talk about what they could say about modesty and how to present their ideas properly.
We felt the Spirit during the panel discussion. The young men joined in the discussion and listened closely to what the young women had to say. One of the panel members told young men, “Could we start by not seeing any immodesty at Church meetings?” The young men responded very positively to the advice from their friends.

-John Priss, Bliss Idaho

Exhibit D: Location- Shanghai, China. Immodesty is everywhere, folks.


Our foreign correspondent reports: “I don’t know what’s the worst part of being in a Godless country – not being able to share the gospel with the people, or not being able to simply take the subway without being bombarded by offensive clothing.”

Aren’t you glad we have modesty lessons? Otherwise we’d find ourselves without any direction at times like in this Mormon Ad:

If she were to wear this dress, I'm pretty sure people would think she was advertising herself as a prostitute.

If she were to wear this dress, I’m pretty sure people would think she was advertising herself as a prostitute.

Exhibit E: Location- South of BYU campus, around 600-700 North, 400 East.


Hannah explains: “When I look at this boy, all I can think about is the message he is trying to send. He clearly is not trying to aim high- he is seeing how close to the line he can get. I don’t think I want to marry a boy like that. I want to marry someone who doesn’t try to toe the line. But clearly, he is sending a message that he doesn’t believe in playing it safe and just wearing modest clothing- he just wants to live on that dangerous edge. And also he just wants to be a whore.”

But this isn’t just a problem for BYU students- apparently, BYU officials are oblivious to this problem as well! Check out this photo from BYU’s official Facebook page:

I never thought I would post porn on this blog, but I am doing it for the sake of raising awareness!

I never thought I would post porn on this blog, but I am doing it for the sake of raising awareness!

In conclusion:

General Authorities have explained that, “Our clothing is more than just covering for our bodies; it reflects who we are and what we want to be, both here in mortality and in the eternities that will follow.” This is why we are allowed to judge people based on what they are wearing (it’s not racism, because it’s about clothes, not skin). We know this to be a true principle because it works. Just read these testimonials- I mean testimonies:

“I did not understand the concept of modesty before I was a member of the Church. Within a few months of my baptism, I learned that a piece of clothing would not make me more handsome—rather, true handsomeness comes from within. But wearing something immodest will destroy that handsomeness like a plucked flower or a licked cupcake, so I gotta watch out.”
-Leroy Samuelson, Moroni Utah

“Many do not realize that tight clothing draws attention to the anatomy, which distracts from the purpose of education, business, leadership, or worship. If I can see the curvature of your body, I will assume you are attempting to distract me with your bodacious temple.”
-ShayLynnae Richards, Mesa AZ

“Before I was a member, I was a total skank- sometimes, I wore shirts without sleeves. But now that I understand how holy my body is, I know not to put evil thoughts into other people’s heads. Thanks, Mormons!”
-Nephi Nibley, Rexburg Idaho


Dutiful readers have brought it to our attention that this problem has existed from the dawn of time, or at least since January 13th, 1970 when hard-hitting reporters from the Daily Universe published this:

daily universe

Please consider writing in to the Daily Universe and encourage them to return to these days of modesty policing and intense scrutiny of dress standards. The men really need it!!

135 Responses to “confronting the naked facts of male immodesty, one kneecap at a time”

    • ahmed zahmed

      site? is that a website or a physical location? or did you mean sight?

    • Anonymous

      While I see where the author’s coming from, almost everything she says has nothing to do with the original picture.
      No where does this guy say OMG what an immodest woman, and OMG those knees are incredible. He’s pointing out that her dress is not in compliance with the honor code. He is not necessarily calling her immodest.
      Last time I checked the honor code at BYU-I does not allow shorts or anything that reveals the knee, while BYU in Provo does allow shorts. Therefore the instant comparison to guys at BYU wearing shorts has nothing to do with the original photo as the two schools have different dress codes.
      tl;dr invalid arguments abounding in this article

      • Anonymous

        She’s pointing out a double standard. This generally occurs when one group is held to a certain restriction and another group isn’t. By parodying this when men’s shorts, she is illustrating this example in a funny, yet inoffensive way that most people will be able to understand. Of course, there are always those who need it explained to them more fully, but don’t worry, we won’t make this too embarrassing for you

      • Ms. Jack

        The BYU-Provo Honor Code dictates that shorts for men must be “knee-length,” just as the BYU-Idaho Honor Code dictates that dresses and skirts for women must be “knee-length.” If the women of BYU-I are violating the Honor Code by wearing skirts and dresses that come just above the knee, then the men of BYU-Provo are likewise violating the Honor Code by wearing shorts just above the knee.

        In any case, the BYU-I Code dress and grooming section states first that “Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner,” then reiterates under the section for women that “Clothing is immodest when it is sleeveless, does not cover the stomach or is low-cut in the front or back.” So yeah, the point of the BYU-I Honor Code is to curb immodesty, and when someone accuses another person of violating the dress code by wearing something too short, they are accusing her of immodesty.

        (In case you are wondering, the men’s section in the BYU-I Code contains no reiteration about immodesty. Figures.)

      • Kate

        The honor code does not include anything about policing and/or reporting others’ clothing choices. It is a PERSONAL honor code, which is where the original picture and commentary is inappropriate.

        Funny article for sure. 🙂

  1. Victoria

    Today I wore a sundress, because I decided I didn’t feel like being respected.

  2. Dr. Jimmy

    “Before I was a member…” wrote some dude named NEPHI haha

  3. weedlord bonerhitler

    That’s ok Hannah and Tinesha. Just remember that this site is about reverence. And knees. Lusty, full-bodied knees. Knees swollen with exertion. Knees chapped with the sun. Oh, what’s that knee? You need some… lotion? Oh my… Oh (eye flutter) my…

  4. Andria

    Those secular boys clearly aren’t respecting the virtue of the Women of Zion when they dress in such an enticing and explicit manner. SAVE IT FOR MARRIAGE, GUYS!!

  5. Sheila

    When I saw that last photo of that cute guy’s with his garments hanging out, my mind was flooded with impure thoughts. So sexy! Thank you thank you for pointing out this rampant problem to the BYU administration so they can protect me from this type of pornography.

  6. Rob

    I love this so much. Keep fighting the good fight, ladies. Start pointing it out to the hipster short short men, that you feel uncomfortable with their immodesty, and that they are creating an environment that is not suitable for the spirit.

  7. Erin

    I really think this needs a “Not Safe For Work” disclaimer-all those pictures of walking pornography! Now I’m fighting impure thoughts AND worried about my job. Thanks ladies. Thanks.

  8. Jared Weiss (@jweiss360)

    Modesty is good and I understand that the dude that said that was out of place. Sooner or later everyone will hopefully leave the bubble of utah a grow some thick skin instead of blaming others for making their life harder. Jesus was with people who never treated there bodys like temples and he still loved them. Alas this will go on… But I choose to look at it like a joke.

  9. Carol Watson

    The comments are are great as the article! Thanks for tackling this topic in a humorous, but pointed way.

  10. Frank Pellett

    Ok, now I’m slightly embarrassed to add that I wear my shorts more often than not (even when a little cold) simply because my wife likes my legs. I’m sure I’ve been being a temptation to many other women and just haven’t taken notice. Am I bad for wishing I could find the ancestry to be able to sear a kilt?

    Course, my wife bragging on Facebook about me doing housework and other things to make her life more joyful doesn’t help me either. I swear, sometimes men just cannot win – you either want us for our bodies or our skills with children and cleaning.

  11. Miri

    This is BRILLIANT. Seriously, I don’t even have enough words. Can you print it as a pamphlet and start distributing around campus? This message is too important to be limited to feminist circles! Everyone must know!!

    • Bob J

      Interesting. The Godless culture that we live in actually has a double standard too. Men are expected to wear shorts down to their knees whereas women show up in public wearing 1″ inseams and showing part or all of the bottom without anyone batTing an eye. Even more interesting is that in the 1979s/ 1980s it was socially acceptable and even sporty for men to wear 1″ inseams- just look at old soccer and basketball pictures and magazine ads from that time. I think that one’s attitude towards modesty is the key. And both men and women should have it, although it may be slightly different because men and women’s anatomy are different. The intersection of what is male /female with social norms is challenging because one should not only be modest to what is taught in scripture, but also must make sure to follow norms in society. Where the two do not agree, I think that it is safe to follow scripture rather than society where a principle of modesty (rather than a cultural norm) was the reason for a given expectation of modesty. Having said that, your attitude of sarcasm is not really beneficial to having a sincere discussion on the subject, and would most likely attract those who either don’t believe in God, or are in rebellion against His standard.

  12. Melissa

    It has also been brought to my attention that nearly every Arnold Friberg painting in the Book of Mormon is pornographic. Naked, muscular male chests! Knees and tantalizing glimpses of thighs! I think you need to do a full spread, er, hard-hitting analysis of why we delicate women have been made to look at PRACTICALLY NAKED MEN in our scriptures!

  13. Ryan

    You know, For the Strength of Youth never specifically says that only young women should dress modestly. For whatever reason, it has been interpreted that way by some. I think the guys in the various exhibits of this post should be wearing longer shorts. Makes sense to me.

  14. Stuart Edge

    There is a big difference here. Notice how the girls in the first picture were wearing skirts? When a girl is in a skirt that is higher than the knee, it can be very revealing when she is sitting down. If you were in shorts, it would not be that way. All the guys in the pictures were in shorts. When you sit down in shorts, it is not revealing even if the shorts are above the knee. If a guy was in a skirt, the same rule would apply to him. If a girl is wearing shorts, I think it’s fine for them to be above the knee.
    The question isn’t whether or not the knee should be showing….it’s how revealing that article of clothing will be if it’s above the knee. I’m sure every girl knows how hard it can be to not reveal anything when she sits down in a skirt that is higher than the knee.

    A guy.

      • Ash

        Yes really Victoria. Don’t you sit with your legs wide spread when you wear a skirt? So when it’s above your knees you can see everything. It’s not like skanky ladies with skirts that go that high would sit cross legged. Oh & I’m pretty sure you could probably see a ways up that guys shorts with his legs on the table but yes when I throw my legs up like that in a skirt you can see more. LOL

    • Mindi

      Stuart – Did you see the picture of the man sitting with his laptop and no shoes on? I can see his underwear. Tell me again how wearing shorts is less revealing than wearing a skirt?

      • kudos

        Because you can’t see his butt… I can’t tell you how many butts I have seen when girls bend over. I hate it.

      • Joe Guy

        Kudos, what do you have against ladies’ butts? Send them my way.

    • Anonymous

      I don’t know dude, when guys are wearing loose fitting shorts and spread their legs, it’s possible to see right up in there. I think in that last picture you can see just how far up the thigh is visible. You can almost see that dude’s butt, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been blinded by nuts on display.

      Also, I’m a girl, and I think I manage keeping my vagina pretty nicely concealed when I’m wearing a dress above the knee.

    • Carina (@jet_set)

      Oh, Stuart,

      Having been lucky enough to have worn skirts AND shorts in my life, they both ride up when you sit down. Your shorts also ride up. Sorry.

      Let’s try something else, and hurry, before I have to wear a Burqa.

    • escc

      Guy: I’m willing to bet most every woman in the world has seen, um, parts of the male anatomy when he sits himself down in a pair of shorts. Particularly if he’s in sports shorts or is wearing boxers/g’s under his shorts. Maybe you didn’t know that your, ahem, unmentionables sometimes become mentionable? Think of that before you think of a woman being too revealing in a skirt, eh?

    • Rebecca

      The last picture shows the man’s garments hanging out from his shorts. Aren’t those supposed to be sacred and wouldn’t it be deemed immodest to show them?

    • Roseanna

      What about the guy whose garments are showing? That is pret-ty revealing. And I think it reveals something about our culture that it made it onto an official BYU page. As for skirts, I’ve had lots of practice wearing both shorter and longer ones and I don’t have a hard time not revealing my “unmentionables”; there are however different strategies depending on the cut of the skirt.

    • anon

      I think you are missing the point. The point is that it really doesn’t matter if you think it’s ok or not. You need to worry about your own reaction and control and I’ll worry about my oh so sexy knees.

      • Janet

        You are quite the hottie! (especially for BYU) It is nice to put a face to the blog. I was beiningng to wonder if you were a blonde with a mohawk. :)I also couldn’t get a date in college, well not with any semi-normal guys. All of my dates consisted of huge group outings and was very similar to Family Home Evening. Hey…maybe that was their way of getting me to attend. I’m still amazed that I graduated without attending church even 60% of the time.

    • Lisa

      Hey, Stuart. How about this: Stop looking up girls’ skirts when they sit down. Kinda like how I avoid checking out a guy’s junk when he sits in shorts (unless I want to see, winkwink)

      A girl

    • Lonicera

      Ever heard the term sitting “ladylike?” That’s how you sit regardless of your skirt length and overexposure is not a problem.

  15. Stuart Edge

    It’s not immodest to reveal your knee cap. Immodesty is one of the outcomes of wearing clothing that reveals the knee cap.

  16. Mungagungadin

    Jesus was all about the immodesty of undress. I’m glad God taught us to body-shame.

  17. Uaintdown

    haha comparing guys’ legs to girls’ legs?! not quite the same. to ignore gender differences is to miss the point. (not that I condone guys who wear immodest clothing).

    • Jordan White

      What do you mean? I do not get the point you are trying to make. Sure a guy’s leg isn’t a girl’s leg, but are you saying that guys can show their knee and women can’t? That is kind of the text book definition of sexism. Unless you mean something different so please explain

      • libbypotterboss

        Are you saying that seeing women’s legs turns you on?

        Guess what? I can get just as aroused looking at a man’s legs. (And may I add: my husband played soccer forever. Those are some mighty arousing legs.)

        You’re so lucky I can control myself. ‘Cause MAN there are some amazing legs out there.

      • Curtis Penfold

        Wait, wait, wait!

        Women have sexual feelings, too?

    • katherinemk

      Gender differences of the knee? What species are you? Knees are knees. They are the same. The only difference I can think of is that female legs are attractive to you, and male knees are not. Expecting ladies to cover their knees and not asking men to do the same is a terrible double standard.

  18. Mungagungadin

    Yeah. Male legs and female legs deserve totally different treatment. Because, legs on women are sex-organs. But legs on men are NOT sex-organs.

  19. Mungagungadin

    I would give actual blood to see my Mormon peeps stop participating in Rape Culture.

  20. dr

    I love Exhibit C where the guy has a serious beard. I think it shows all that he really doesn’t care about the honor code…

    • Melissa

      Well, it was by the HFAC, he might be a theatre student with a beard card… but yeah, I thought it was funny too!

      • Prinzezita

        I know why BYU did this to you! It’s because you are hanvig SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX SEX now! Maybe that is a bad word even if you are a married lady? Let’s see if you get blocked again because of this post! If you do, please tell them that it was your mother that put the explicit conent on. I would like to see them call me in their office for that!

  21. Ken

    kudos: Bummer how you were cursed with one of those non-pivoting necks. You must really hate seeing all those butts.

  22. sallygirl

    FINALLY! Someone calling all those walking pornographic man whores to repentance!! I was beginning to think i would need to meet with my bishop to repent for having all these lustful thoughts.

  23. GrammarNazi

    I am appalled by the spelling and grammar in this post and most of the comments.

  24. CeeCee

    Here’s an idea for all men and women out there. To make life a little easier . . . simply look at people’s faces. Don’t trouble yourself with looking at shoulders, stomachs, buttocks, private front parts, legs, knees or even feet. Why is that necessary anyway? Unless, of course, you ENJOY taking a peek at other’s bodies and making judgements. If you can say no to drugs, alcohol and sex my dear Mormons, I’m sure you can say no to kneecaps, knee creases, shoulders and so on. Is it really that difficult?

  25. Danielle

    Oh if someone could take the scourge of white hairy man thighs out of my life I would be oh so grateful. That student was just mad because that young women had nicer legs than he did. When your knees look like the back an albino wildebeest, jealousy is inevitable.

  26. Ryan

    On one hand, I understand that BYU-I and BYU having the dress codes they do and expecting people to follow them. But saying that seeing knees is comparable to porn and stating people would mistake you for a prostitute for being comfortable with yourself is flat out slut shaming. Even going as far as to put down people who have not or will never set foot on a BYU campus and are not part of the Mormon faith. It’s not really your problem what others do. You take care of yourself.

  27. Mori

    I’m glad this was brought up. I must admit, as a male on BYU campus i have been suffering from knee envy when i see that my knees are not as manly or attractive as other students on campus. Their immodesty has given me feelings of inadequacy and flung me into a deep depression.

  28. byubuckeyes

    Hahaha, this is an excellent response to a self-righteous BYU-I student. Not that anything we say will ever stop the overzealous Pharisees of Zoobieland from continuing to post crap like that original photo on the internet, but at least we can poke fun at them. Bravo to the author, a very entertaining read. – BYU Alum

  29. shoppermom74

    Apparently not many people are familiar with “satire” as a writing tool-this was GREAT! My roommates and I used to laugh at the campus honor code “nazis” who would stop people right next to the statue of a nephite outside the library. Just remember, “the campus is the world” is something that seniors tell freshman when they are trying to pick up on them, not a truism.

  30. AB

    Recently I was waiting in line at a store behind an attractive man in well-fitted jeans and a snug shirt that flattered his athletic form. Sinful thoughts instantly flooded my brain as I tried to tear my gaze away from his muscular torso and a rear end that I surely could have bounced a nickel off of. As I finished my shopping, I was so sad for this wayward individual. If only he realized the sinful thoughts he caused me, he surely would have thought twice before getting dressed that morning. Perhaps a wholesome pair of pleated chinos and a oversized polo would have been more appropriate.

  31. Anonymous

    Glad to see that the ‘populous’ at BYU is maintaining high standards, especially in regards to spelling

  32. Anonymous

    Pornography usage is more common among men (humans with higher androgen production) than women. It is not uncommon among women and the true figures are yet to be established as society becomes more willing to overcome the stifling puritan shame of nature.

    I think women in general are far more beautiful than men. I don’t know how you think any guy can be beautiful unless he’s effeminate. I’m not gay. There are other sexual species where it is obvious that the male is more beautiful than the female, but the debate really diverges into vapidity at that point.

    A double standard is unacceptable, but I don’t think you can say for sure how sexual stimuli affect the other gender unless you’ve felt it. To me it appears that men are more involuntarily affected than women, but this is a guess.

    • Lorie

      … a guess and a very bad excuse for denying women’s desire and expecting them to be responsible for both men’s and women’s behavior. Brilliant blogpost, my young Mormon feminist sisters.

      • Anonymous

        Wow. You take my opinion and read all you want into it. Yay for girl power?

      • soberj

        oh ya im glad you missed the compliment he was giving women there lorie. keep fighting your fight i guess.

    • blue

      “I think women in general are far more beautiful than men.”

      Obviously that’s merely your opinion and not fact, since roughly half the population is sexually attracted to men. Believe me, as a straight woman who knows many other straight women, we are very much interested in gorgeous men! I find the male body very desirable and to me it is far more attractive than a woman’s.

    • Lisa

      Speaking as a dude who has no idea what it is to be a girl? Take your guesses elsewhere.

      I find many men beautiful, and few–if any–are effeminate (though they can be damned cute)


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