good comments: ordain women edition
Welcome to a special edition of Good Comments, today we will be looking exclusively at comments related to the Ordain Women event to attend Priesthood session during this past general conference. Before anything else I want to throw a disclaimer in that I am by no means trying to say everyone making an argument against female ordination is some kind of hater, as there are many good and thoughtful arguments against female ordination. We just won’t be dealing with any of them here.
Yeah, we’re gonna need lots of cats to get through this.
Yikes. What a ride the past few months have been. Standing at the end of it now I’m left with very conflicting feelings, I’m proud, angry, confused, disappointed and very much embarrassed. That’s a lot of feels considering that Ordain Women doesn’t even have anything to do with me. You see normally when I’m putting good comments together you can see that the people making these comments really don’t know what they are saying, so it’s easy to poke fun and find humor in the chaos of words and thoughts. With Ordain Women however, comments seemed much more hurtful, and unintentionally (or not) caused damage. I can deal with having my personal belief structures called into question, even in really ridiculous ways sometimes, but when my personal testimony and faith systems are suddenly open for public assessment based of my supporting a greater presence of God’s power on this earth via the Priesthood…well it leaves me with a gross taste in my mouth, like when I sometimes accidently drink some orange juice after just having brushed my teeth, aka every cussing morning.
I’m still confused why some people think its ok to treat other people like this. Personal testimonies are not, and will never be up for grabs in the realm of public opinion.
The great irony is that if the prophet came out tomorrow and announced that the Lord has seen it fit to double the Priesthood power on earth by expanding it to women it would probably be seen as the greatest event in our lives within the context of church history. Nobody would dare question the understanding or faith of the Prophet or the Quorum of the Twelve. But because women are asking first suddenly they are holding hands with the devil while sipping margaritas and trying to destroy the family. There is something deeply sexist and disturbing about how some church members are responding to Ordain Women. Are these the same people who were against ordaining black males to the priesthood? This wave of resistance has some troubling implications. But this isn’t really my space to dive deeper into that so I’ll leave that to better minds than mine and get back to what you all came here for: lazy cat gifs…
But enough of that, lets lose our minds.
For those unfamiliar, Al Fox is a prominent LDS blogger/speaker. She is pretty well known for her online presence via her blog and YouTube videos. She also travels a lot doing firesides. If you support Ordain Women, Al Fox is not your biggest fan.
For starters, women were not protesting General Conference (or anything for that matter). Now that we have established that lets move on to what is probably the most fascinating analogy I have ever read. “Women protesting Gen. Conf. for Priesthood power is like men protesting doctors not being able to conceive a baby”. Wait, what? WHAT??? Why would men protest doctors because they can’t have babies? Was that the doctor’s fault? Do they have the power to somehow change that? (OMGZ, Does Al Fox not know where babies come from?) As a reminder Al Fox is confusing the power that nature gives you, versus a power that God gives you that is somehow being made as the same thing. I even called the biology department at BYU to ask if there is in fact, a priesthood gland somewhere in the male body, and the answer was a definitive “Please stop calling us.” But what a confusing and disjointed thing to say. This is tucked in nicely to condescending statements that imply that OW supporters are somehow ignorant and confused, and are people of a lesser faith.
What is perhaps the most disappointing thing about this is that her blog is not fully terrible, she has very nice things to say about being accepted in church and making people feel welcome, she even said there is a place for everyone in the church before it was cool. So it’s frustrating to see someone act with such venom towards other members to a large audience when they 1. Clearly see the church can be a hazardous place to be and 2. Don’t even have a firm grasp on what OW is trying to do. So congratulations I guess, for becoming the problem you tried to solve. She did use the correct form of “role” though, which is a victory at this point.
Hahaha, yeah. The joke here is that women are not capable of leadership positions. #Internalizedsexismmuch?
ATTENTION! An important man has man things to say about women: http://www.sottunderground.blogspot.com/2013/09/women-and-priesthood.html
It’s too long to paste here and there are too many excellent gems to share. So I will just run down some highlights:
-Repeatedly highlighting OW as a very vocal minority, with caps and bold font. Because a minority can’t be taken seriously.
-Impressive use of “The Sneetches” a book about teaching why discrimination is wrong, to justify discrimination.
-Biological determinism ad nauseam.
-The quintessential summery of every strawman argument against OW.
To cap this privileged man child’s ranting’s off let’s look at a comment from his post:
Yeah we can’t be seen associating with people who you know…think gays are people too. That’s not the way we play ball on Team Jesus. It was nice of her to make 1 person the avatar for every woman who thinks women should hold the priesthood, if you think about it it’s convenient really. (As a fun piece of trivia, I had that last one saved as commentofdeath.jpeg on my computer)
And now, we close our computers, take a breath and go outside, to bask in the nice fresh air and remove ourselves from being personally berated by complete strangers.
To close on a more optimistic note, I believe we are living in a very exciting time in church history, women are praying, sister missionaries are being given increased leadership opportunities, church leadership is listening and responding to the pleas of women. It may not be in the way we would like, but they are listening, and more importantly, our Heavenly Parents are listening, and that has to be worth something.
“All Adventures, especially into new territory, are scary.” –Sally Ride
11 Responses to “good comments: ordain women edition”
You didn’t even get the worst in here! Where are the ones that say that the supporters of OW are Satan’s pawns? Or that we’re being led astray by the devil?
Post them here if you wish, but I always believed people who supported OW were worshiping the devil. #facts
The Devil told me he’s against female ordination. Because he doesn’t want anybody to have the priesthood.
I’m going to make a t-shirt that says “That’s not the way we play ball on Team Jesus”
I realize that you really believe that what you are doing is right and for the greater good. But even if you actually are right, which I definitely don’t believe, how you are going about trying to fix it is completely wrong. You are only helping to undermine the religion of which you claim to have such a strong testimony. If you truly believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and that Christ is at the head of this church, and that He is leading it in the way that is best for the greatest number of individuals, to help them get back to our Heavenly Fathers kingdom – namely the Celestial Kingdom, where we will all live with Him again in eternal glory, then you should be ashamed that you are simply adding a stumbling block for those members who are teetering on the edge of a testimony. Those members who are still looking for the truth, or even the would be members that are investigating the church – who are so close to finding the light and truth in the gospel, they don’t need to find an internal cancer that you are helping to spread and grow. We are supposed to be missionaries for the gospel truth, and if you spent more time on that, and less time trying to tear apart the fabric of our religion, then you would find yourself filled with greater satisfaction and self-worth. You might even begin to see how wonderful you are the way God made you. If you can bring one soul unto the gospel, how great will be your joy in this life and the next?!? And if you can bring more than one soul, how much greater will be your joy, and the joy of those you helped to find the truth?!? I wonder how great your joy will be when you look back on the part you played in chasing people away, or creating a gap for Satan to place more contention – to disorient and confuse those who might otherwise have found enough strength and testimony to nurture them before the real challenges came? If a man take your coat, give him your cloak also. Love your enemies as yourselves. Pray for those who would despite-fully use you. These are words from the Lord. You are not following them. Even if you truly believe that you are being held back by the men in the church, this is not the way to fix it. If you have faith in the Lord, and if you remember the authority and willingness that the Lord has to succor and protect His people, then you must simply have faith and pray – like Mary Fielding Smith who had the faith to pray for her Oxen, and they were healed. Or faith like the Israelite’s – when they brought down the walls of Jericho with nothing more than some stomping and faith. The whole point of being here is to prove our willingness to be humble, teachable, repentant, patient, full of grace and long-suffering, and willing to trust that the Lord knows what He is doing, and how to lead His church. He set it up this way from the get go. It hasn’t been morphed into some male dominated system that abuses the Lord’s power. The Lord has promised that He would never allow any prophet to lead His church astray, and NONE of our prophets have. That isn’t to say that there haven’t been men in positions of authority – such as bishops and stake presidents, and maybe even a couple of members of the seventy, who have made mistakes and abused their power – but none of our prophets have led this church astray, and all of them have had great respect for women. I believe that many women in the church would find it ridiculous for men to start brow beating them in public because they aren’t allowed into the relief society. Or if we started claiming that we have just as much right to hold the power of creation in our own wombs. Just because one role seems more powerful or desirable here on earth, doesn’t make it true. Our purpose is to learn to appreciate what we are given, use our God given gifts for grace and the benefit of all, and trust that the Lord knows what He is doing – not to tear down things and rebuild them in our own images for our own desires. Maybe women should hold the priesthood, but do you really think that you are proving your worthiness by tearing down the church to get it? Do you really think that the Lord will be bullied into giving the women of His church the priesthood, just because you form a group, and publicly proclaim your desires for it? If you truly believe that you should have those priesthood keys, then pray and have faith that you will receive it, for there is no other way to get it, and you will only continue to defecate on the Lord’s true gospel if you keep trying to get it like this. Just my two cents ladies. I hope you have had an open enough heart to hear the truth of this. We all have our crosses to bear, and maybe this is just one of yours. If the voice in your head is telling you to do this, it is not coming from the Lord, because if the Lord wanted this to happen, He would share it with the prophet, who would then share it with the rest of the members. New revelation happens every year, and our church is better and stronger for it. If what you are preaching is true, then it will come in the Lord’s time, and not when you want it to happen.
Posted on April 18, 2014 by c j
Jesus Christ visits the people of Corianton; and ordains women
The Other Book of Mormon
Mentinah Archives vol. 1
The Second Book of Shi-Muel ( Samuel the Lamanite )
1) Now, it was while I labored as High Priest to the people of Corianton, before the year wherein my father returned unto our fathers, that the signs which I had prophesied unto the people of Zarahemlah concerning the birth of the Christ were accomplished. And when my son Corianton and I did labor together in that capacity the signs of His death came, and the people were amazed and affrighted.
2) But behold, the Spirit did whisper peace to our minds and to our souls so that we did patiently bear the day, the night and the day of darkness. For, though the occurrence was frightful, still, the Spirit did sing a song of sweet redemption to our souls. And many dreamed dreams and saw visions. And even some few did receive commandments as to what should be done when the Lord did come to visit the people of Corianton.
3) And He did come unto us, in accordance with the visions that I too had received when I was but a young man. For, we had gathered together to worship when the signs came. Yea, and all the people in the cities had gathered to Corianton. And all the people in the forests had gathered, and also from the lakes and rivers. And we were all together, a great concourse of people awaiting the coming of the Lord.
4) And we did hear His voice from afar off and we did shout with joy when we heard it. For, it caused our hearts to leap. Yea, our hearts did leap within our breasts and nothing could haveprevented us from crying out our joy when we heard His voice.
5) But the voice was first a voice of warning unto all those who did wickedness. And from this we understood in our hearts that not all the wicked were destroyed. But behold, many were destroyed, even the most part, and that so that all might have one or many accounts to tell of the signs that preceded the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. And the voice was as the voice of an Angel, not of a trump or of thunder. But it did pierce us to the core. And behold, the voice did also separate the good from the bad. For, those who feared the retribution of a just God, trembled and sought to hide themselves. Yea, and they were
filled with great loathing to see Him. But those who did good works were filled with joy and they ran out into the streets and clearings to see what was about tobefall. Yea, they welcomed their Lord with praise and singing.
6) And in the day that He did come amongst us, and it was not long after the signs of His death had abated, we did according to the things we had been commanded in the visions and revelations that many had received during the days of darkness.
7) Behold, we did greet Him as our King and our High Priest. And I did take Him by the hand and I did lead Him to the seat of the High Priest. And I did place upon Him the robes of the High Priest and He did sit upon the seat. And behold, I did declare to all the people that this was the Christ, the Son of the Living God; He who was killed by His own; He who had paid the uttermost price for our redemption and who had sealed it with the sacrifice mostdear. And the people did gather to the Temple to see Him and to hear His words.
8) And behold, my son Corianton did approach the seat and, bowing himself down before his Lord, he did wash His feet, hands, and head, and he did anoint Him with oil most precious. And when he had done this, the Lord did place His hands upon the head of Corianton and blessed him, and bid him arise.
9) And behold, Pa-Sabel approached also the seat and bowed herself down before the Lord. And she did break bread and blessed it, as she had been taught to do upon the Way. And she offered it to the Lord, and He did eat. And she did pour out pure wine into a grail and blessed it, as she had been taught to do upon the Way. And she offered it to the Lord, and He did drink. And when this was done He took her by the hand and arose from the seat. And He said in the hearing of all the people gathered there:
10) Behold, this is well, what these two have done unto me. For they did approach me upon the Way. Yea, they did seek My face and I did acknowledge them. And behold, I did teach them these things upon the Way when I did show Myself unto them who sought Me. Let them be an ensample unto all those who would come unto Me and diligently seek Me. Unto such shall I give My kingdom. Yea, of such shall I make up My jewels.
11) And behold, when He had said these words, He did join the hands of Corianton, my son, and Pa-Sabel and presented them together to the host, saying:
12) These two have become First Man and First Woman. Surely, they shall always administer My sacraments together. For, the one is not without the other in Me. Wherefore, I shall bless and sanctify all that they do.
13) And unto the two, He said:
14) Go now and do like as you did unto Me also unto all this people, teaching them to do likewise unto every person. And they went straightway and ministered unto the people, teaching them the ordinance of these two sacraments.
15) And when they had done this and returned again, He turned again unto me and said:
16) Are there any sick and afflicted among you? Let them come up unto Me and I will bless them. And by their faith, they shall be made whole.
17) And we did cause that all those who were sick and afflicted to approach Him and He was pleased. For there were not so many who were sick and afflicted because of the many healers that worked their gifts among us. But there were some who had met with accidents who were halt and some who had complaints that they had borne for many years for which the Healers had no cure. But behold, these were not many.
18) Now, when they had approached the Lord, He did lay hands on them and blessed them. And behold, they did arise and were free of their afflictions. And thiswas a great confirmation of what we had always
believed about the Lord, that He is mighty to saveboth quick and dead. And we rejoiced in this affirmation.
19) And when He had blessed all the sick and the afflicted, He turned again unto me and said:
20) Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven.
21) And we did suffer all the parents to gather the little children and bring them to the Lord. And He did teach them many things that cannot be written. And He raised His hands into the air and He blessed all the little ones. Now when He had done this, a great light was seen in the sky above their heads and they were all enveloped in light. And it was to be seen within the light that Angels descended and did minister to the children. And voices were heard that we did not understand, and songs were voiced that we did not know.
And all the people marveled at this thing. And when the Angels had again ascended and the light had gone away, behold, the countenances of the children shone still and they did prophecy.
1) Now, after all these things had taken place, Jesus turned once again to me and said:
2) Behold, the people of Corianton are Nemenhah indeed. Great should be your joy and also your cause to give thanks and rejoice. For, you have listened toMy voice and you have soughtMy face. Wherefore, I have manifested Myself unto you at many times, and you are not surprised nor too much amazed by My appearance unto you this day. This thing does please Me very much. Now I go unto the Nemenhah of Mentinah again to teach them. Continue faithful and I will visit you often to teach you also.
3) And after He had said this, a cloud did descend fromheaven and He was taken up in it and carried away with a great sound.
4) And I, and all the people, did stand in amazement and in joy. Yea, we felt a joy that could not find expression. And we could not find it in ourselves to depart one from another for the space of many hours because of the Spirit that was in us. For, of a sudden one person or another would burst forth in prophecy and we were loathe to be absent from such miracles.
5) Now, in three days time the people had meant to meet to worship together because of the signs that had been shown in the heavens. And now that Jesus had visited them and manifested Himself unto them, they were all the more anxious to meet and offer oblations unto Him. And it was while we were thus met and employed that we looked and behold, Jesus stood in our midst. And when we had seen Him, all the people bowed down to the earth before Him. And He sat with us and taught us upon the bench, saying:
6) Samuel, you who have been my mouthpiece in times past, be so now even unto this people. And take twelve of your people, of both men and women, and behold, I shall touch them and place upon them the priesthood. And they shall listen to My words and take them to the people. For the multitude gathered is great and My voice shall reach them all through Myanointed ones. And all those who are of the Nemenhah of Corianton who are not present must also hear My words. Wherefore, these whom you appoint and upon whom I lay this great charge, shall take other twelve from each city and region, to begin
the spreading of My gospel to all the people.
7) Then, when all the people have received of My word, let them all strive to obtain for themselves the anointing. And if they do this with singleness of heart, seeking My face, behold, I shall manifest Myself unto them upon the Way. For I am the Way, the Truth and the Light. If anyone seeks Me in this spirit, they shall find Me.
8) And I did all that the Lord commanded me, choosing out six men and six women who were known to me to be upright people with good intentions. And He took them one by one and touched them and called them to be His servants. And these are the words He used:
9) Upon you, my servant, I lay a certain charge and commission. And I give you authority to act in all things that the Spirit does manifest that I would do were I present to do them. Wherefore, be diligent in study, and also in fasting and in prayer. In this shall you know My doctrine. Yea, in this shall you know of Me, through the whisperings of the Spirit, that which isMy will and that which is not. And I give unto you power to command the elements as often as the Spirit dictates. Wherefore, pray always that you be not deceived and carried away in pride.
10) Then, casting His eyes about, He taught us concerning this priesthood, saying:
11) Behold, I do perceive your thoughts. Marvel not that I have given mine authority to women and men alike. Yea, this thing has been of concern to some since the day that Pa-Sabel received word from Me of the ordinance she should perform when I came. Behold, I do confer the priesthood upon those men who
would follow Me and do the things they see Me do. And unto such is made an ordination, that they may speak and act in My name, and be justified in so doing. But I do not confer such upon the women, for they have of My Mother in Heaven that which I cannot give. Wherefore, I do ordain them. But the priesthood they have already cannot be given, nor taken away, but by that person who gave it. Wherefore, if there be any woman who desires to follow Me and do the thingsthey see Me do, they are authorized from the foundation of the world, and I do justify them.
12) For, the daughters of Eve do sacrifice of themselves freely for the sake of all living. For this cause did Adam call her name Eve. For she is the Mother of all Living. She does give of herself, even to the laying down of her life, in order that man might be, and in order that the purposes of heaven may go forward. She is a Priestess and Queen unto the Most High God forever.
13) Wherefore, if by the Spirit she is moved upon to take up emblems of My life and death, and bless them, and administer them to the people, what is that to you? She does it unto Me. Wherefore, restrain her not at all.
14) But behold, men received not such power by their creation and come into the world without the natural inclination to do good. Wherefore have I said, the natural man is an enemy to God. By the sweat of his face shall Adam earn his bread all the days of his life. And through constancy in service and in sacrifice shall he learn, order by order, line upon line, even precept on precept, to become like Me and do the things they see Me do. Wherefore, I confer priesthood upon men who would be My servants, and I give them
authority to minister. But woman are ministers from the foundation of the world.
15) And when a man wishes to engage in the work ofmy Father which is in Heaven, you unto whom I have given this authority may confer it unto him and ordain him to that stewardship that I shall provide for him. That he may also take up his cross and learn by the application of the Law of the Gospel to give freely of himself, breaking his heart and humbling his spirit. For,this is the sacrifice which I will accept of him.
Yea, he shall bend his own will and tame it, and do whatsoever I shall command him. And this he shall learn to do without coercion or compulsion, but freely ofhis own accord. This is the sacrifice of the heart and the spirit which I require of all those who would call themselves My servants.
16) And that man shall attend to do his duty unto the people, administering the sacraments unto them, keeping My Holy House, and teaching the people. This is the work that I shall require of him. And behold, he shall do all this freely and shall not be compelled to do it in any way. For, though the priesthood appear to be that by which service is rendered unto others, it is a service unto Me and unto My Father. Wherefore, let him do it with an eye single to the glory of God and not tohis own. And if he do this, he shall attain to that
state of happiness of which the prophets have spoken, both in this life as also in the life to come.
17) And when a woman wishes to engage in the work of My Father which is in Heaven, in addition to that great work which the Mother has given unto her by virtue of her very creation, you, unto whom I have given My authority, may ordain her unto that stewardship that I shall provide for her. And she shall apply that great gift, which My Mother which is in Heaven has given her, to the ministering unto the people as
the man does. She shall also bend her own will and do whatsoever I shall command her. But remember, whereas the stewardship that I shall provide for every man is a necessary thing for most men, in order that they might overcome the natural man, that which has been provided women by the Mother does already accomplish this end for them. Wherefore, priesthood, though a woman may officiate in the sacraments and
in every holy ordinance, is not requisite for her salvation. Whereas, men must have this device in order to truly come unto me. And where the priesthood is not available for them, surely I shall provide another means whereby men may overcome that which prevents them from the Way.
18) And these are the sacraments which I command you to administer unto My children:
19) You shall bless your little ones, calling upon My name. For, in the day that I began the work of Atonement for them, they were given to Me by the Father and the Mother. Wherefore, ye are My children, notwithstanding, I am also My Father’s son.
Posted in Let’s Share Our Dreams and Visions | Leave a comment
Women’s Priesthood Daughters of Adam and Eve
Posted on April 18, 2014 by c j
For I Am the Lord;
Now, behold ye Nemenhah, the daughters of Adam are blessed from before the foundation of the world.
Behold, My daughters, by the nature of your creation, ye do serve all people. Yea, it is good that ye do organize yourselves in all your good and that ye do uphold this nation as ye presently do. But behold the orders of the priesthood are for the sons of Adam, to be an instrument unto them that they may train their natures to be more like unto the daughters of Eve.
Yea, that by the sweat of their face, even by their strength, they might learn to give of themselves for the sake of others. For how shall they become like Me if they do not that which I have done? But, ye Daughters of Eve, ye do it already.
Wherefore, covet not that which I have given unto men, but rejoice and know that ye may seek My face without other preparation than that which ye have received by your nature. For ye receive of the Mother even a more complete priesthood than the orders of the priesthood that I give unto men, in order that they may prove themselves thereby.
Posted in Let’s Share Our Dreams and Visions | Leave a comment
Nemenhah Temple Endowment; Covenant of Elohim
WHAT is that jibberish? More attempts to lead others astray? Surely there was a verse or two about marrying same sex couples in the temple because I’m sure that’s going to be part of the OW platform shortly…but of course all true believers of the group know that’s coming next…right?
By the way…speaking of discriminating…does one have to be young and a feminist to be part of the group? Can’t I be old and machoistic?
[…] patriarch, proudly jealous, who would later promote ethnic cleansing in the Old Testament and bar women from the priesthood in the LDS Church, it would make sense that Heavenly Father isn’t a fan of listening to […]