muzzle me*
I am on “informal probation” because a stake president, in whose ward I no longer reside (1), felt that articles on this blog were inappropriate and my involvement with Ordain Women demonstrates that I am “in open rebellion before God.” He assigned me to take down the offending articles and pray about disassociating myself entirely from Ordain Women (2), warning that depending on the outcome of those assignments, a church court may be in order. After I left the meeting with him shaking, I realized he hadn’t said specifically what my informal discipline meant. I emailed him to ask him to clarify- he never responded. He had called me to request to meet on the exact same day that Kate Kelly’s leaders emailed her. I am not the only one besides Kate Kelly and John Dehlin to have received some form of discipline for being open about their beliefs and questions.
A few days later, I was offered a job in Washington D.C., moved across the country to start it, and let my stake president know I had moved. I requested my membership records again in my current ward, and after messages back and forth between bishops and then between stake presidents, they were transferred. The stake president told my new leaders that my restrictions were to refrain from taking the sacrament and speaking publicly in church. He also stipulated that I am not to hold a calling. My new bishop says he does not anticipate changing the probation until he has had a chance to meet with me privately.
When I walk in the chapel this Sunday, I will essentially have a muzzle over my mouth.
I cannot take the bread and water in my right hand and eat and drink in remembrance of Jesus Christ as I have done for almost every Sunday of my entire life. I still remember the Sunbeams lesson where I learned that it was not just a snack because I had honestly thought that the church knew how hard it was to make it through sacrament meeting and gave us a little something to eat part way through. Instead my mouth will be blocked from that most important ordinance of our weekly worship. This restriction is particularly biting for me because in my meeting with my old stake president, he asked me about my relationship with Jesus Christ, and I shared a very personal spiritual experience I had had while taking the sacrament earlier that day that deepened my testimony of the Savior. His declaration that I cannot take the sacrament, which he did not have the courtesy to tell me directly but instead sent to follow me across the country, seems almost incomprehensibly snide in light of what I shared with him.
I cannot “speak publicly” in church. This is the restriction that moves me beyond stunned grief into anger. Will I be speaking publicly if I say hello to the women I have made friends with in the past two weeks in my new ward? Will I be speaking publicly if I say “Amen” at the end of the prayers and talks? Because I did not know the specifics of what “informal probation” meant until today, I had been taking the sacrament and making comments in Sunday School and Relief Society each week since I met with my stake president. I frequently participate in lessons and occasionally bear my testimony in sacrament meeting. I have deliberately avoided bringing up controversial topics in church and have instead focused on online efforts where people who want to engage can choose to do so with more flexibility than people in a room with me. I had assumed that people would appreciate me not bringing “contention” into church. But apparently this choice has utterly backfired on me, because while Senior Manager of Public Affairs for the Church Ally Isom stated yesterday that those with questions should just bring them up in church, I am now not allowed to do that because I talked about my questions outside of church.
My old stake president took care to emphasize that I do not have to change my mind- he even assured me that he agrees with me on “more than you think!” I just can’t talk about what I think publicly.
I understand that it would be easier for the church if I did not exist, if anyone who has ever thought that maybe there’s room for improvement in Zion didn’t exist, and many church leaders on every level wish we would just go away. Of course it would be easier if we all agreed on everything and we already had all the revelation we need and the Ninth Article of Faith didn’t exist so we could pretend we don’t have to wrestle with that pesky doctrine we have of the heavens being opened and it’d be easier if there was nothing that needed to be done to make the church better. And to be fair, many local church leaders vary from being supportive of Ordain Women to simply not considering it an issue they need to address in their congregations. But this merely demonstrates the unevenness of the application of church discipline and highlights its arbitrary nature in response to members who express thoughts divergent from mainstream orthodoxy. Saying that discipline is a local matter is a cop out for acknowledging the structural inequalities and leadership roulette that plague all Mormons but most harm Mormon women.
The assumption with keeping it local is usually that leaders are disciplining based on personal information they have of the member or their ascertainment of where the member’s heart is. But that meeting with my stake president was literally the first time I ever met him in my life, and the questions he asked about my testimony were such that I faced the daunting task of proving myself to someone who already thought I was apostate and down a wicked path.
I have presented no new doctrine, nor have I ever “recruited” people for Ordain Women. My worst crime appears to be that the discussion packets we put together look too nice, too put together, and contain too many conference talks and lessons from church manuals such that they apparently look like we are attempting to replace the manuals and recruit people to our “new doctrine” – hogwash. If I had written a blog post and linked to all the same material and stated the same questions, no one would have batted an eye. But because we put it all into a packet for easy hard-copy access, we are “recruiting,” and because I am part of that “we,” I am disciplined- informally, which essentially means my leaders can do what they want without having to do a church court with a specific due process for participation.
Often when I write blog posts, people express dismay that I did not lay out my entire testimony for them to judge along with my article. While it is no one’s business but mine and my Heavenly Parents, I will say that my experiences have only confirmed my desire to participate in church, to talk about ways we can progress together, and to ask my leaders to honestly pray about issues that further revelation could address. If my leaders really do not want me, they will have to do their own dirty work of cutting me off from the body of Christ. But I am hopeful that we can address our misunderstandings, talk about our common ground and potential areas for collaboration, and move forward with stronger bonds as siblings in the gospel of Jesus Christ. The reason I spend so much time writing and thinking about and trying to build community within Mormonism is because I care so deeply about it; it is my home, my native tongue, my people, my family. I don’t decide to go to church each Sunday because I’m looking for ammo to bash the church with; I go because I want to for myself. I think Mormonism is infused with immense potential woven throughout its doctrine, and I look forward to continuing my participation and helping facilitate improvement.
In the meantime, the pain of finally knowing what my “informal probation” means is stinging. I spoke up about women being denied an institutional, administrative, and ecclesiastical voice, and for that I am not allowed to speak in my church. I am muzzled.
* the grammatical imperative of my title was originally not intentional, but then I decided to keep it.
“If we stop asking questions, stop thinking, stop pondering, we can thwart the revelations of the spirit. Remember, it was the questions young Joseph [Smith] asked that opened the door for the restoration of all things. … How often has the Holy Spirit tried to tell us something we needed to know, but couldn’t get past the massive, iron gate of what we thought we already knew?”
— President Dieter F. Uchtdorf
— President Dieter F. Uchtdorf
- I moved out of his stake boundaries on April 29th. He called me on May 3rd. Despite my informing him that I no longer lived in his boundaries, he stated that he would “sure love to talk with me.” He assured me I was under no obligation to meet with him. When I requested my records be moved to my new ward, they were held, and I was told the old stake president would not allow them to be moved unless I met with him. I did so on May 18th. His first question was if I was recording anything (I wasn’t).
- During the meeting, he started telling me the story of Abinadi and Alma the Elder. I was confused what his point was as it took him a long time to slowly relate the story of how the Alma the Elder was one of King Noah’s priests and close advisors, but he still chose to turn away from wickedness leave King Noah after seeing Abinadi executed. My old stake president, when I didn’t seem to be getting where he was going with this, slowed down further and asked me if it wouldn’t have been hard for Alma to leave all his friends and admit what he had been doing was wicked. He told me that I could be like Alma the Elder since I am in the leadership of Ordain Women.
Young Mormon Feminists 
138 Responses to “muzzle me*”
You are so brave, and you are such an example for other women. Hooray, hooray, hooray for you!
Yay! You’re so brave in mocking your church leaders on a blog and driving a cause contrary to the church you claim to love which does indeed recruit other apostates!
As someone who ACTUALLY mocks my church leaders, yes it is a brave thing to do, considering the insane social pressure within mormonism to fall in line. Hannah’s awesome.
I’m glad you acknowledge you and she are cut from the same cloth.
She’s not mocking her church leaders. She’s trying to approach them in good faith and good will and she’s being given a stone instead of a fish.
The LDS Church would do well not to emulate such organizations as Scientology by spying on members’ words online and then punishing people for what they think. –dee holmes
She clearly hasn’t approached the church leaders in the proper manner, which is privately and without creating an organization teaching false doctrine
John, I am so sick and tired of comments like yours. You are not a judge in Israel. How do you feel comfortable judging women and men you don’t even know and have no authority over? We are specifically commanded not to judge others, comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and love thy neighbors. I’m asking in sincerity how you got to the point where you feel comfortable calling someone an apostate when you know nothing about what’s in their heart.
I have been disheartened to see the joy that some members are taking in the idea of pushing people out of the church. Having one’s covenants broken should be heartbreaking to all if we truly understand the gospel of Christ and the belief that we’re all brothers and sisters.
If you want to stand up for “the church”, fine, but I believe you can do so in a much more respectful, loving way. The way I believe Christ would do so.
Ordain Women’s actions are those of apostates. We know their hearts by their fruits. When the church asked them to keep their protest (regardless of its peaceful and reverent nature) to the free speech zone, they still marched on temple square. When they wanted to further recruit others to their cause, they created “6 Discussions,” clearly symbolic of the discussion set previously used by missionaries to teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. When invited to repent of their sins, OW leaders Hannah and Kate went public to complain, thereby showing their lack of faith in the church or the Lord’s leaders. The possibility of each of their excommunication is in fact heart-breaking. However, rather than privately work out their situations with their local leaders they have gone public, thereby mocking their local leaders, the church’s processes, and the Lord. These are not the actions of the true believer. I refuse to call evil good and good evil.
John, I won’t get into it with you except to point out that Kate’s leaders threatened to make the outcome of her disciplinary action public which is in absolute violation of the church handbook. I’m not sure what choice she had in making her situation public. Wait so her leaders could tell her friends, family, and supporters of OW of her discipline or do so on her own?
I’m glad you feel confident in judging someone’s heart by their fruits. Have you ever read a single OW profile? A lot of these men and women are asking sincere questions. Most have experienced hurt, ridicule, and loneliness at church. Is that how church should be? No. You’re entitled to your thoughts and are permitted to rejoice in someone’s covenants being broken (something I personally don’t understand). I just wonder whether more people would feel accepted at church if people reached out to them in love instead of judgment, especially those that have no authority to judge.
I may be wrong about this, but I will always err on the side of grace and mercy. I take the second greatest commandment very seriously and it seems like we as a people struggle with truly loving those who are different, who have different ideas, or who dare express ideas or opinions that we don’t like. I think I’d rather be overly accepting and loving than judge those I don’t know. When I face my Savior one day I want to be able to tell Him that I loved rather than judged to the best of my ability.
Charla, All we have is Kate Kelly’s spin on what her stake president supposedly told her about publicizing the matter. I understand you trust Kate Kelly to speak truthfully about her interactions with her Church leaders, but forgive me for being skeptical when she has so clearly violated other key conditions of her informal probation.
Orso, you’re right that I’m relying on Kate’s version of events. However, John Dehlin’s letter specifically states that the SP may choose to go public with the outcome so I don’t think it’s too far fetched to believe what Kate is saying.
I’m not sure what proof you have that she has violated other provisions of her informal probation, but I’m still more concerned with showing love and compassion than I am about judging others.
Charla, Handbook 1 specifically authorizes the stake president to make a public announcement in cases involving the preaching of false doctrine to safeguard the name of the Church. That is what Dehlin’s stake president was referencing. As for violating the terms of her probation, I’m sure we can agree that Kate has not stopped her activist work, taken down the OW website, or stopped trying to gain a following for herself, all of which were conditions of ending her informal probation.
Orso, I don’t know much about the disciplinary process, but it’s my understanding that it’s in the individual’s discretion as to how private they want to keep the matter. I’m not sure what I would have done in Kate’s situation, but I personally think it was brave of her to share so that other members of OW had the opportunity to dissociate themselves if they so desired.
I can’t wait for the name calling to commence, but as for one who struggles with feelings of gender inequality in the church, I’m sad that Kate and John (and now others) are being threatened with discipline. You may not understand, but they created a safe place for many, myself included. I’m afraid we’re turning into a church where it’s ok to think and question whatever we want as long as we don’t talk about it or only talk about it in the privacy of our own homes. I’m not sure how we can effectively comfort or help those who question when we don’t know that they’re even questioning.
Anyway, I’m done with this discussion. It saddens me that anyone can read a post like this and comment with anything other than sympathy and compassion.
Get to know the people behind the cause and you’d be less likely to be so unkind and sarcastic.
Amen to that!:)
Is that you Boyd?
I’m sorry Hannah, I would have liked to point out that even Alma the elder, in his wicked ways, had the priesthood.
A fact that also didn’t make his actions acceptable in the church. However, Alma the Younger is a great example to have brought up. He also was a leader of an organization that taught false doctrine and strove to lead faithful members away. Hopefully, like Alma the Younger, you Hannah will return to the fold and spend all of your days working to undo the damage you have done to the testimony of so many.
quit trollin bud
Do you HONESTLY believe, even after reading Hanna’s heartfelt and moving post, that she is striving to “lead faithful members away”? Clearly, that is not her intention, and implying such things seems seriously unchristlike.
As a person who spent her entire life in the church and who has since left (completely) due to it being untrue, I have to say that you do more for my cause than Hanna does. Hanna (and other like-minded and faithful members) give hope and the feeling of inclusiveness to those who struggle with certain aspects of doctrine, history, or who otherwise find themselves sitting in question. If anything, Hanna and her lot HELP with member retention, while YOU give members a bad name. You sit and you judge and point your finger. YOU show those questioning their faith that there is no room for them in your perfect religion. You show them the door, and they will walk right through it, just like I did.
So thank you. Well done. I hope you feel good about it.
John. You make good members like me look bad. Your self righteousness is practically dripping off the key board. What you know of the people participating in this movement is shallow and second hand. Summarily damning someone based on incomplete and partial evidence found on the internet is childish and reprehensible behavior, it’s not your duty. You are not spreading the gospel or defending truth, you’re engaging in petty exclusionary name calling to satisfy some personal need. If you want to call a spade a spade, then look in the mirror.
I’m so sorry you have had to go through disheartening and confusing experience. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
I, like you, still believe the church has room for me. There is no place else for me to go but here. I feel called to stand up for righteous principles, to speak for the oppressed, to insist that everyone be treated as a beloved child of God. I never thought I would be doing so inside the church, but I will.
Sending lots of love and support.
Let the women keep silence in the churches! And outside them, also. Patriarchy and unrighteous dominion strike again.
Due process in a LDS Church court of love? You aren’t serious, are you?
I applaud you for posting this after being put on probation. It is so helpful for me (and hopefully others) to hear your side and your views and your intentions – which are all good and positive. Thank you for being such a strong, brave example to women with the same views!
Do what is right and let the consequences follow. Stand strong and stay vocal.. the truth is ‘men’ have no power over you.. if you are right with God, NO MAN can tell you otherwise. Too often LDS people put apostles/SP/ etc on pedestals of infallibility. They are merely men.
Sounds like you’re more like Abinadi in his metaphor. I’m so, so sorry. 😦
I was thinking she was like Alma the Elder, Kate Kelly the Abinadi, but who does that leave as Noah? Hmmm…looks like his metaphor is appropriate, after all.
It is so disheartening to read about how liberal Mormons (and, indeed, some conservative Mormons) are being silenced for legitimately questioning tenets of their faith; surely questioning leads us to a greater understanding and ultimately a strengthening of our testimonies?
I walked away from the church 16 years ago (in my last year at BYU) because I felt, even then, that my questions and doubts-and specifically my feminism-were unwelcome. In addition, I came to feel that relying on Bishops and Stake presidents (all of whom were, and are, men) was anathema to me. My relationship with my Heavenly Father is mine and mine alone; the only intermediary needed is Jesus Christ.
There is much that I miss, and still yearn for, but am thankful that the judgements and condemnation no longer apply.
All the very best for your journey.
Can we focus less on gender and more on your actions? I think it’s absurd to think that an LDS man being outspoken against the church like you wouldn’t have similar repercussions.
This third feminine movement is different than the others I’ve noticed. Maybe due to the internet and the ease of joining others and finding other sources of information. I am not a blind follower and have made a conscious decision to include the church in my life. But I think women are very confused right now as far as they’re place in this world. So many bored housewives with weak husbands behind this movement. Makes me wonder how important this movement would be if they were out farming to keep food on the table. But no we have it so easy these days we decide that we are smarter than everyone that came before us, and somehow we are entitled or special. Women are now experiencing what men have always experienced, a desire to leave their mark on the world. Are questions okay? Of course. But when your actions start to conflict with the standards set by the church you follow they have every right to thin the herd. It would be more saddening to me if the church rolled over for a very small percentage of confused people. There are so many other churches with great roles for women. What’s stopping you from joining one or creating your own??
Whoa. Thanks for excluding a huge group of young, strong, single millennials from this powerful movement.
Joseph, have you considered that perhaps it’s part of God’s plan to free us up from work like farming so that we are able to contemplate weightier things and prepare to receive additional revelation?
The early Mormon settlers in Utah were out farming to keep food on the table. And yet the women then still managed to be incredibly active in the suffragist movement. Several of the General Relief Society presidencies and other prominent Mormon women were friends with Susan B Anthony, they toured the country speaking for women’s rights, and attended national and international meetings on women’s suffrage (as prophets, both John Taylor and Brigham Young would send their support and regards to these groups when the Mormon women attended, not to mention Brigham Young’s drive to get Mormon women to go to medical school and get their doctorates when women doctors was still a fairly new and suspect thing).
And those women too were told what they were doing was an affront to God/the natural order of things, that they were confused about their place, that their husband were weak, and that if men or God wanted to grant them those privileges that was all right but asking for it was far too brazen and out of order.
You’re right, it’s those damn weak husbands who let their women use their brains and think for themselves. God gave us fists, we should use them if our wives get out line.
Joesph – do you know how ridiculous you sound?
The thing that I don’t understand about you mormons. Why do you get so caught up in all of these rules and egos of your leaders. Several of the articles that I have read make your religion sound like a Nazi organization. Have you not read the New Testament? Christ spent much of his life fighting the religious leaders of his day with all of their rules of obedience and compliance. This sounds to me like the very same thing. These self righteous and power hungry church leaders in the New Testament eventually killed Christ because he would not conform to their version of the “truth”. Instead of going through them, and increasing their power base he was teaching his followers about freedom, love, compassion and kindness.
I am not sure what they teach you in those mormon churches. Why don’t you attend a real Christian Church where Christ is the focus and where people try to love each other, and where kindness prevails. When I read about the mormon “courts of love” I cringe. You people are all crazy. Why would anyone submit themselves to that. This is not representative of the gospel of Christ that I am familiar with.
How you let others interfere with your spirituality seems just crazy to me. The body of Christ consists of all believers. I am a Baptist and we like many other Christian religions focus on Christ. Our efforts are not focused on PR work and trying to look good to the world. Go read the New Testament!!! I am glad that all of this nonsense is being revealed so that people know what these young men with their shirt and ties actually represent.
Your experience is very similar to mine and others .. But for different reasons. After my divorce I made some moral mistakes .. I was disfellowshipped .. Went through “the repentance process” .. Didn’t participate in discussions in classes or in meetings, etc. Didn’t take the sacrament. And so on. What my ward did for me during this time was no one came to my home to see how me or my children were doing for that entire year plus. And at the end of this “repentance process” I met with Bishopric which included 2 men me and my ex-husband had been good friends with them and their wives. (Side note.. My ex-husband had been having a relationship with a woman for a few years. Physical or emotional .. It was still an affair which he fully denied and so no action was taken against him with the church.) Anyway, as I met with these men to see if my standing in the church could be fully restored, I will never forget what one of them asked me. “Have you forgiven your ex- husband?” Like what in the world does that have to do with what we are dealing with concerning me individually!?!? NOTHING!!! The church probationary experience sure did not have a positive affect on my life, spirituality, or activity in the church. It was quite the opposite. I do not go around being critical or making judgement on members, but I now live my own life. It concreted within my heart that my eternal salvation is between Heavenly Father and me. He provided me with a savior so my sins can be forgiven. I am responsible for repenting to my Heavenly Father and he is the one to forgive me. I am not a bad person. I am not a dirty whore laying in wait to snag a husband of a faithful wife in the ward. I suddenly felt like one after I became a divorcee. I was a woman who grew up in the church, married in the temple, lived faithfully and followed blindly without asking questions. I did it “the right way”. I’m not active anymore. I’ve remarried to a wonderful man who use to be active and a Temple attending member also. We live in Zion and the biggest turnoff on returning to church is we have become a project for some to save our souls and get us back to the fold. If you want to influence our return to activity then be our friend, care about us beyond the ward building. Respect our choices and decisions. We are happy productive responsible adults. Don’t make the church the reason you are in our lives. Ok.. I got a little sidetracked 🙂 we are all children of God. That is what matters.
So proud of your generation! Blown away by how articulate and faithful you are. Praying you will find peace as you continue to fight for our voices to be heard.
That’s funny. I don’t think she or the Ordain Women organization are FIGHTING for your voices to be heard. We can hear them loud and clear.
Yes, but can the leaders hear them? To put a finer point on it: are they actually considering their position, rather than writing them off as apostates?
There is nothing “faithful” in starting groups who are in disagreement with church teachings and inviting the views of said group to be taught in the homes of faithful members (6 “Discussions”).
So since you were not put on formal disciplinary actions, you agreed that you would do this and then posted again on the blog? Or did you say no, I refuse to do this?
This is heart wrenching, Hannah. I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Your voice is such an important one. Continue to sing your song. Many are listening.
This voice is one of apostasy.
Heresy, actually. You Mormons use the word “apostasy” as though it means “expressing an opinion I disagree with,” when it really means “leaving our church.”
Given that the leaders of (what Mormons believe was) God’s True Church in Jesus’ time were pulling their hair out because of his heresy, which was at least as supported by the scripture of his time as Ordain Women’s is, I think they and the OP are both in good company. And I think that if all you can say in response to what they share is “you are wrong because God,” you’re going to find yourself in a very awkward position when there’s another 1978 moment and you are suddenly wrong because God.
Try to engage on the level they are. You’ll want to turn both your heart and your brain on for that.
Jeez you just keep posting on this one page like several different times. Why not compromise your hate into one message instead of just small slices hmm? Or do you have nothing better to do than troll? Honestly what are you accomplishing by doing small multiple posts?
How about wearing an actual muzzle to church. If people ask what it is for, just don’t make a reply, as after all “you are not to speak in public”. I’m sure it would be hard to draw such attention, yet you have an opportunity to help people see the church is bullying you.
I can no longer stand this! This feminist movement is so backwards….I cannot get behind it. I’m as outspoken for women’s rights as they come. I play the drums (a man’s instrument!) Etc. But this? No. To think that the people behind these sites are able to do research and speak for women in the church is rediculous. This is heresy. Where is the faith? The love? So much energy is spent here leading others down the wrong path. A queer christ? A queerer christ? Seriously… false spirits have fooled you.
Don’t tell the feminists this truth! They’ll only complain about being repressed!
John, wow – I don’t know what to say. Every comment I read of your’s I *facepalm* in embarrassment. Your comments are those that drive people away and keep people from coming in. I am so tired of having to stand up for my church to other’s who just hear similar comments as yours. Please don’t scare the faiths defenders away.
Anonymous ready to burn at the stake…
What I think is “rediculous” is that fact that you equate playing the drums with taking a feminist stand. I would ask you where is your love? In a church where we know that many things will yet be revealed, I find statements of absolutely certainty absurd because they contradict the 9th Article of Faith. You either believe in continuing revelation or you don’t. Most feminists I know NEVER claim to speak for the women of the church. They speak for themselves. It would be nice if others would do the same and not take it upon themselves to judge groups of people they don’t know.
Also, posting as “anonymous” is cowardly. If you’re going to call someone out for following false spirits, at least do it under your own name.
Because I don’t do social media and forgot to post my name, I’m a coward? ! Interesting. You know, for all I know your name is made up. .. doesn’t matter … I wasnt claiming playing the drums was taking a feminist stand, simply an example of my doing something out of the socially expected female norm. Charla (means discussion in Portuguese, but hey)…. You post so much on this. .. Who are you to ow?
I apologize if my comment was overly harsh. This is a topic I’m sensitive about. I support OW and have several friends and family members who are sensitive to general inequality within the church and I’m terrified people will leave. Perhaps I misinterpreted your comment, but when I read comments from strangers questioning my faith, love, and basically accuse me of heresy I find it hurtful, not because I care what a stranger says, but because it’s hard to have a genuine conversation with someone who has taken it upon herself to judge others.
I also apologize for wrongly assuming your lack of name was cowardly if you simply forgot to post it. As a general rule, I find that it’s much easier to judge and be cruel on social media because we can stand behind false names. If your intent was truly to judge those you don’t know as unfaithful and heretical then I personally do believe it’s cowardly to do so without being willing to stand behind it.
As an aside, I know the meaning of my name.
Charla Willian
Westfield, IN
It would be better if you left this organization that treats you like a common criminal. .. Also if you haven’t already, read 1984, it may sound familiar to you
“Don’t listen to Mormon church leaders tell you what to do. Listen to me instead, when I tell you what you should do. I’ll even passive-aggressively insinuate that you’re in a bad place because of your choices, the same way you would.”
Oops, I mean they. The same way they would.
I love you and your fierce heart, Hannah.
I am so sorry Hannah. I can hear the pain and hurt in your words. It would devastate me to not be able to take the Sacrament and participate in the community that I love, and it sounds the same for you.
I am also sorry about the level of crap in these comments. You have been brave and vulnerable in sharing – that deserves love and compassion not judgment and arrogance. I am so sorry.
Sorry Hannah, and your supporters here: You have been reprimanded because of your actions. If you don’t understand why, go to your leaders and discuss it in humility to understand why. Also go to the Lord – but listen to what He says. If you think the Church leadership is wrong, then pray about it. Your positions are so wrong it’s hard to know where to begin. The Lord will remove leaders who rebel or ignore his promptings. And He will do the same to you and me if we do the same. If you could get over the blogging addiction, and its inherent need to find some controversial every day to write about, you’d be happier and get more done in the Lord’s work. Right now you are tearing down His work with with every post like this. Instead, why don’t you try to blog about the joys of the restored gospel? Your approach is simply wrong.
LOL…just like the blacks holding the priesthood was so wrong right? Give me a break man, the mormon god changes his mind all the time(usually with some cajoling from the US Government)…I read a good quote somewhere, the only thing that determines if you are an apostate or not is the date.
You are so brave, little human. Putting that big, mean young woman in her place, for daring to speak her heart about something that hurts her and people she cares about.
Shame on you.
I ask where is your faith? Is your faith in the hands of people or is it in the hands of your lord and heavenly father? If your faith is in your god then pray for understanding and personal revelation that you may know the truth for yourself but be willing to know the truth whatever it may be. Look for truth not for the answer you want. If you are rebuked you are rebuked if not then not.
Who died and made you the Mormon gods? Because you seem pretty sure that you know what they think.
Have you prayed about it? Are you willing to know the truth? How easy it must be for you, when nothing has to change in order for you to feel valued as one of your god’s children in his church. How easy it must be for you to other and dismiss anyone who doesn’t, and tell them they just aren’t enough like you. And that if they really tried they could be, and it would be a miracle and not a tragedy.
Be strong. Take heart. The world is watching. You have my support and solidarity.
“You are braver than you believe, stronger than you seem, and smarter than you think.” – A.A. Milne
I’m really sorry to hear this, Hannah. I’m hoping your new leaders will be more reasonable.
[…] By hannahwheelwright I am on “informal probation” because a stake president, in whose ward I no longer reside (1), felt that articles on this blog were inappropriate and… …read more […]
I never usually leave replies but I just felt the tone of this article was really bitter . It seamed like there was a lot of pride. I would maybe suggest re-evaluating your tone.
This comment is so meta.
You’re the kind of person who won’t back up your minivan off of someone’s foot until they ask you nicely, aren’t you?
Hannah. I don’t know you, but I truly love and support you. My husband and I both read your blog and have found your words the opposite of evil and discouraging. In fact YOUR words inspire and uplift us and help us. You have encouraged us to KEEP being apart of this church we love so much despite feeling like outsiders with some of our views.
Thank you for being a voice for all of us who are to afraid and not as eloquant as you.
Thanks for holding tight to the spirit you feel at church. My sentiments are the same. The more injustices that occur, the more driven I am to fight them. You are a great example of tempering even your most-well-founded anger in order to follow Christ’s instruction to turn the other cheek and not to attack those even those who dispitefully use others.
FWJ, thank you for your comments. I know you probably receive a lot of derision on this thread but I find that your replies are always incredibly thought out and substantiated.
Hannah, I love you and am proud to call you sister. Courage!
Yes courage! 🙂 Ans this John who keeps posting…I have skipped over all his posts but the first sentence he posted. No real disciple of Christ talks about people like that.
May your Heavenly Mother bless you, and watch over you and yours.
Thank you for sharing such a vulnerable experience. Secrets keep a dysfunctional family mired in abuse, truth telling brings healing. The family members mired deepest in the abuse are usually loudest in protesting that family secrets must remain private. Ignore the sick voices and continue to be an example of bravery and truth telling.
I find the actions taken against you to be so disturbing. As a never-mo I have a different perspective, and all I see is bullying and manipulation. Women already have such a rough go in your church, told their highest purpose is to stay home with children and support their husbands, denied priesthood authority though it was previously granted, now they are being told to sit down and be silent when they dare challenge these archaic notions. The idea of these disciplinary councils is just anathema to me. Is this really what Jesus would do? Strength to you.
I’m happy you made it out of BYU before all went down.
At least you still get to pay tithing.
Hannah, just wanted to send you some love here. It takes courage to be one of the faces of Mormon feminism right now. Good job standing up to the bullies and please know that you are not standing alone!
I am so sad this has happened. And so sorry for all the pain you are going through. =(
I am so sorry you are being forbidden fun taking the sacrament, but thank you for sharing your story.
You’re great, Hannah, and if anyone needs to repent, it’s the bullies who are abusing their positions of authority to try and silence you. Shame on them.
Hannah, thanks for your courage.
Hannah, (This is Heidi, Whitneys mom (The one you met in April at the action) I applaud you. You are so brave. Hang on lady.
If they tried to tell me that I couldn’t take the sacrament I would tell them that Christ did not die for my sins so you could tell me whether I could take the sacrament or not. I would take the sacrament anyway. God knows your heart, and that is all that matters. Not some small minded man in a little room acting as if he speaks for God.
Muzzle you?? Are you serious? If only we were so lucky!! I found your blog post on my Facebook feed posted by an obviously upset and disgruntled mormon. Thanks for adding fuel to the fire, which is about all that you and your friends do. I just don’t get it–do you really think you are doing good for the church? Keep your personal life and all of your complaints about the leaders and how much better and smarter you think you are OFF the Internet!! And how self righteous of you and your friends to come up with 6 discussions on how to spot and rid sexism in the church. Who gave you the authority? Please, heaven help us–muzzle yourself!!
Thank you for your kind, loving, and Christlike comment. It’s not at all self righteous to point out that people you don’t know are self righteous. It’s hilarious to me that you may have genuine concerns or criticisms of Ordain Women or those that are fighting for gender equality within the church, but you seem unable to have a conversation in a respectful, gracious manner.
You are an amazing women. Sending much love!
Just when I think I should feel more compassion for those getting disciplined for blogs like this, I get awakened to reality. I see, right next to this post on this very blog, a bizarre, completely offensive (to even a person like me – a reasonably open-minded, liberal Mormon) post speculating about “queer Jesus.” Or, I peruse the profiles of the men and women at OW, and notice a large portion of them put there by non-Mormons and ex-Mormons.
I have no doubt that some very decent men and women are posting on these blogs. So, why associate yourself with what I might politely label as “outliers?”
Do you really feel okay locking arms with someone promoting “queer Jesus?” If female ordination is such a commonly-desired practice, why is there a need for so many profiles from people who basically say, “I left the church years ago because it’s all crap. Still, I believe you fools that stay should give women the priesthood?”
My interest in this started with what I felt at the time was the silly “wear pants to church” thing. I made the mistake of liking the FB page for the event, and soon realized it was a place filled with vile, disgusting messages from ex and anti-Mormons, coming out of the woodwork at the opportunity to mock and ridicule the church they can’t seem to leave alone. One common theme among many of the messages was (paraphrasing), “I haven’t been to a church meeting filled with these dumb***es in almost ten years. I’m going, so I can enjoy the looks on their faces when they see me in my neon green hot pants and deep cleavage-bearing tank top.” These women weren’t politely trying to light a fire in the church for women’s rights. They were relishing the opportunity to take an undefended kick to the church’s proverbial groin.
I tell my son that you can tell a lot about a person by looking at the company he or she keeps. Using that criteria, I am having a hard time believing in the image of the righteous-but-hurt woman, sincerely wanting what is best for the church.
Queer Jesus, indeed.
Paul, as a member of a minority group, I imagine you take offense when an outsider takes the position of a extreme mormon sect and generalizes it all on you. For example, many outsiders have difficulty knowing the difference between FLDS and LDS. I imagine you would think that to be outrageous and grossly unfair.
Apparently you think the only mormon feminists are those with the loudest voices and blogs. Please know there is a silent majority of thousands and thousands of women who suffer and silently plead for our cares and concerns to be heard.
I’m sorry you seem to have difficulty in discounting the more extreme voices of the “pants” movement and seeing complexity there. Yes, I wore pants. Yes, I love my church and my membership. I’m trying to improve zion with a heart full of love.
Apparently you, and the majority of members like you – neither care nor have enough Christlike love or empathy to even begin to understand. Go back to GC and read the talk on empathy. I promise. It will change your life.
and maybe step away from the internets thinking that by reading a few blog posts you can know the hearts and minds of intents of thousands upon thousands of women.
Srsly.
Nicely said, and I agree.
Great comment! I completely agree.
WELL SAiD CHRISTINE!!! People like Paul are the gossipers who spread lies about what we feminists believe… The whole time I was readinG his comments I was thinking WTH??? Where does this guy get this stuff?
We’ll said, Paul!
This reply is for Heidi. I’m not sure if she’ll see, at this point.
Since you replied directly to me, I hope you’ll respond to my question here. You called me a gossiper and a liar. Could you be more specific? I sincerely cannot see how anything I wrote could be construed as either gossip, or lies. In fact, when I saw what you wrote, the first thing I thought was, “Is there another person who has posted as Paul here?”
Clearly, your feelings are still hurting from the events of a few weeks ago. Those hurt feelings are driving your inflammatory rhetoric, it would seem. But I have never intended to hurt your feelings (or anyone else’s). I guess I am just wondering where I might have gone wrong.
Paul
To the Mormons posting who so oppose people speaking out, if your church really is the one true church, then surely nothing can harm it. Not the internet postings of members, not worldly pressures to give women equal rights.
So why are you worried?
No one is concerned about the idea of people speaking out hurting the church. That’s ridiculous as many have spoken out against the church through it’s many years of history. What they are concerned about is hurt on the individual level. The hurt of someone leaving the church because they feel women should have the priesthood, thereby giving up their membership in their church.
Really, they are concerned about hurt on an individual level? The way your church treats people who do not agree with doctrine doesn’t support that. Do you think the hurt caused to someone like Kate Kelly is justified because you are doing it to “protect her eternal salvation?”
Sorry you are having a hard time, repentance is never easy. How did you feel after praying about it? From my experience, if you are unwilling to pray about something than you are not really seeking God’s will.
Nicely written Hannah, you have support from many areas of the continent ,,,including my little haven In AZ
It may not have been your intention to lead others in the church to leave the church. It may not have been your intention to give anti-Mormons fuel for their fire. It may not have been your intention to cause people who have never heard of the church to turn away from it. While that may not be the truth in all cases, it would be wrong to ignore that it is true in many cases. One need only read the comments to this post to see that it is true. A soft heart acknowledges when things aren’t working the way you intended and changes the game plan. What is the purpose of the priesthood (that you purport to love and respect so much that you want it) if it isn’t to help us see the consequences of our actions (unintended or not) and help us to fix them. If it was just their job to support and love us, there would be no need for the priesthood at all.
Hannah, I have a 4-year old daughter who regularly asks questions like, “why are there no stories of girls in The Book of Mormon”, “why don’t girls pass the sacrament”, etc. It breaks my heart that my 4-year old is already having a difficult time figuring out her place in the church. Thank you for being a female leader. My daughter needs you and many more to be visible and true examples of the love of Christ and the gifts of God to girls manifested outside of defined gender roles.